Jan 25, 2009
Exclusive Interview: The Holy Grail of Stem Cells (Part II)
Andrew Mickey, Q1 Publishing
Originally featured in Q1 Publishing’s Prosperity Dispatch (sign-up here – it’s 100% free)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Allen Eaves (Cont.): In a way, the Holy Grail for stem cell research is if we could actually create organs...wouldn’t that be wonderful? One of the big things, I mean, if you could somehow grow kidneys in culture just think of what that would do for all those kidney failures, all these - people are donating kidneys and they are dying of renal failures because they don’t have kidneys, and that sort of stuff.
And that’s called real tissue engineering and there is a lot of work that has been done on that. But it all comes out of ability to grow and understand what regulates the growth and differentiation of stem cells.
Andrew Mickey: Is this a milestone that’s been passed or is this a hurdle that we need to get past?
Dr. Allen Eaves: The Holy Grail is actually to be able to expand stem cells - primitive stem cells - in a reproducible way and then to get them to differentiate into mature tissues that are then useful.
Andrew Mickey: And then you want them to mature like regular cells?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Yes, we could do that...for instance, say you want to make more bone marrow for somebody or more platelets...
Andrew Mickey: For haemophilia (lack of platelets in blood which creates inability to clot and excessive bleeding)?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Yes. So, we have red cells, which are relatively – they keep quite a while and we get donors - people can donate the red cells and stuff, you can too - but with platelets they just don’t keep very well. You can’t do it for white cells because they don’t keep at all. But if you could get the cells growing up just before, say, they are mature white cells, and then you can get a bunch of those and then put them into a human body where they then differentiate into cells and go after bugs and kill them - that would be huge advance.
Andrew Mickey: What kind of timeline are we looking at here?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well...the horizon for this is years. I would say one to two decades and maybe one to three decades probably... and it’s going to be going on forever.
Andrew Mickey: But what about what’s going on now with Big Pharma. A lot of their drugs are going off patent in the next few years and they’ll have nothing. Given that timeframe do you think the era of blockbuster drug era kind winding up?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, a lot of what we call cellular, so the cellular therapies and this – yeah, it’s probably going to be more individualised. And it’s going to have to be done in facilities that grow cells and know how to manipulate them, more genetically engineer them.
All this is tied into gene therapy. So we got cellular therapy where we can grow up the cells, and do various things with using those cells, and we can extend that into making them actually into organs, and we call that tissue engineering. So that is sort of the further extension of it. But also we can do gene therapy to fix up cells where there are genetic disorders that we require to make things right.
So a haemophiliac would be someone not producing Factor VIII (platelets). They can’t clot. If we can get stem cells to do that, you wouldn’t have to be given patients, Factor VIII.
So all these things are ringed together but the basic technology that ties them altogether understands the regulation and differentiation of cellular growth. And...what are the factors - the growth factors, and what are the inhibitor factors, and what are the genes that produce cells and how they regulate and so on... So that’s what this whole area is all about.
Andrew Mickey: Okay, so that’s basically the stage you are at right now? Or that’s where everyone is chasing?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Yeah, we are still just trying to understand...what we really don’t know.
For instance, you take a stem cell and ask it to produce red cells and/or white cells or platelets – right. Two to three major components in the blood. We don’t know what controls that process, why do some cells give rise to red cells, others give rise to white cells and others gives rise to platelets. If we understood that, then we could control and manipulate it and use it for therapeutic advantage.
But we don’t – we aren’t there yet.
So a lot of basic biology - cell biology - that needs to be done to understand all these processes in cell and molecular biology. I mean it all sort of blurs together, but really what it comes down to, understanding what regulates cell growth and differentiation.
The difference in cell growth is where the numbers of cells just expand; differentiation is where they decide to go onto produce one cell type as opposed to another cell, like red cells versus white cells. So that’s differentiation.
The perfect strategy for navigating a bear market revealed:
CNN says, “[It’s] a way for you to get your dollars working on Wall Street with less risk”
USA Today says, “If the market continues to plummet, you won't have to watch your entire investment go down with the ship.”
Get all the details about this strategy and learn exactly what to do now.
Claim your copy of the Portfolio Repair Kit 100% free now.
Andrew Mickey: Now, are embryonic stem cells needed for that?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, up until recently everybody would have said so, but work by a fellow named Shinya Yamanaka, in Japan, on IPS cells (induced pluripotent stem cells) changed that view.
So...if you can take mature cells, or cells from an adult, and get them to differentiate...go backwards if you like in their differentiation to become a more primitive cell type and then take them forward again into different tissues. I mean, that would be what we really think we can do, right?
Andrew Mickey: That’s pretty exciting stuff...
Dr. Allen Eaves: Very exciting.
Andrew Mickey: That is exactly what’s getting me fired up about stem cells.
But what about your business? Do you guys focus on the actual development... where we can produce as many stem cells as possible?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, we provide the tissue culture media that is basically liquid with all the growth factors and good if you need to get cells to grow in culture outside the body. We also have a system for separating different types of cell populations using antibodies that link to little particles of iron. So the different populations of cells have different proteins on their surfaces what we call antigens and a whole bunch of molecular antibodies that have been made into individual proteins. And we have a system where we can link iron to those antibodies and then they stick on to those antigens and then we put them under a magnet...and you can pull away one cell population from another. That’s pretty important for when you want to manipulate these different cell populations... you want to purify one and get away from some cells that maybe producing inhibitory factors or pull away cells that you don’t want or which are potentially malignant.
There is a big problem in doing all these manipulations. The cells may - when they’re put back into patient - become malignant. So that’s a whole unknown area that has to be sorted out too.
Andrew Mickey: Would you say that there are currently a lot of projects out there which are under-funded but have high potential?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Yeah, well, it’s hard to know. You read these things, I mean; you probably know more than I do. There are a lot of biotech companies (on average) which only have six months of funding left.
All I can say is that Obama is probably going to put more money into research in general and certainly will reverse the ban on NIH funding in supporting embryonic stem cell research that Bush did. And he can reverse that with a stroke of a pen. And that will probably happen as soon as he takes office and that will be a good thing.
The funny positive thing though in the U.S. that has benefited the stems cell field...there is no money coming from NIH, the National Institute for Health. This has pushed the individual states to support stem cell research; whereas, before they weren’t doing so much of that and that has also stimulated private donors to support research institutes in major universities. So...assuming that money stays in place and then there is more added through NIH, and then this could be a good field, right?
And that’s a good thing, and the field will be able to move forward. But this is fundamental to all sorts of aspects of biotechnology and medicine, and improved therapies and medicine. So, yeah, I would say that there is a sense of optimism with respect to Obama taking on the presidency and what this will mean for stem cell research in particular.
So that’s a big positive thing.
Andrew Mickey: So realistically, can money help to accelerate the process?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Oh, yeah... what’s kept investors away is the long horizon to a clinical product and that’s a justifiable concern. This is very complicated stuff and a lot of this has to occur in academic centers or research hospitals and with funded government money...when there is an obvious clinical application then it is appropriate for investors to come in. But it’s high risk. The answer is yes.
Andrew Mickey: Now with something like what you are doing, where you’re kind of an intermediary where you sell tools necessary for research, and not developing necessarily the application for the public? This would be easier to market.
Dr. Allen Eaves: Yes. Well, you see, our target market is researchers. So, if more money goes into research in general that’s good for us.
Andrew Mickey: Okay. So, just to clarify, you focus on the blood portion?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, actually, we have media for growing and neurological cells and mesenchymal cells.
Andrew Mickey: Neurological is different however.
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well – there are like a dozen different tissues... there are more than that, but when you think of the blood, you think of muscle, you think of liver, pancreas and kidney. So we are moving to have media and reagents for all of those areas. But right now, we started off with blood, we then moved into neural, then we moved into the mesenchymal and now we are into breast and prostate.
Andrew Mickey: Okay. What about pancreatic?
Dr. Allen Eaves: We are working on that.
Andrew Mickey: So these are the big prizes I assume?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Yeah, pancreatic is huge. If we could just get beta cells to produce insulin...
Andrew Mickey: Oh, problem solved?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, yeah exactly and it’s almost there. I mean, the patients have to be severely immunosuppressed because they are not even tissue matches usually. But just think; if you could get the patient’s own cells to grow up and get them to be insulin. So, creating cells like you get from a donor and then inject them into the portal vein, you will have a pretty good treatment for a lot of diabetics or people with advanced diabetes sign - so that’s an obvious application.
The other big application is Parkinson’s disease. So getting neural cells -and it will produce dopamine - and injecting them into that region of the brain where dopamine is. That’s the other big immediate applications of all this.
Andrew Mickey: That would be something. So are there any other sectors in this area that have a cash flow positive sustainable business other than research?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, I have another company called StemSoft Software. So we make software for helping cell biology laboratories and keep track of the reagents and the processes that are used to do cell therapies. So it’s used in cord blood banks and in bone marrow transplant labs.
So they keep track of specimens. You need to do some preparative procedures to get rid of the red cells and reduce the volumes, so we are only freezing down the most - the true stem cells, and then you need to keep track of these – you need an inventory system to keep track of these in your freezer system.
So it’s basically sort of an inventory system and laboratory information management system.
Well, that’s what I do, right. There are all sorts of companies out there trying to research. There are all sorts of companies trying to grow pancreatic cells and get them produce insulin, or trying to grow neural cells and get them to produce dopamine and to use in injecting them.
And then the same with muscle cells to put into patients who have a myocardial infarction. So the cardiovascular surgeons take these cells - just some outer cells - and just inject them into damaged myocardial infarction using catheters. That’s the way it is right now and there seems to be some positive benefit to that.
Investor Alert:
The Prosperity Dispatch, written by Andrew Mickey, our Chief Investment Strategist, is Q1 Publishing’s free e-letter and was founded with one sole mission: to make our readers better investors.
This is where Andrew reveals his most thoughtful research and valuable trading strategies. You will also have access to interviews with experts like Harry Dent.
Most importantly - you'll learn how to use investment strategies that really work...all in less than 15 minutes a week.
Claim Your 100% FREE Subscription Now
Andrew Mickey: Now, from a like a global perspective. North America has relatively higher costs of doing these types of things... a lot more regulation when it comes to more advancing.
Do you think that there’s opportunity to move things along more quickly in a country like China or Brazil for example which build up medical infrastructures that will be more aggressive?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, we see this as a big problem. There are people who are offering unethical treatment, I mean, stem cell therapy for various things and for autism or something like that, which is unproven, right? And that goes on in countries like -well, other countries, let’s put it that way.
And that’s always been a problem for people who have serious diseases like cancer in particular. Somebody says they can do something...from wonderful neurological therapy or something for cancer, and they go off to Mexico or some place. But in North America and in Europe we are pretty careful about regulation in all this.
But desperate people will still gravitate to these places and then come back claiming of some cure and stuff, but there is no evidence if this really works.
So we have to stick with our regulations here and when we do find something, it gets tested rigorously and the FDA oversees it or Health Canada and we feel good about it.
This way, we can show that in a scientific way it has been evaluated properly and it adds some value to the patient. Not by wasting their money or resources or lives in some stupid way.
So yeah – but you will find that other countries where China - they are not going to be paid enough for their operations. And in China because the powdered milk and stuff like where there was a scandal.
The FDA has actually opened up an office in Beijing, and China will want that because it will ensure that their products can be used in North American market. So everybody will be moving towards improve regulations and that’s good news.
We know how to do research and how to work on animals and stuff first, and test it...and then go to – use very sick patients who really don’t have any options. And they agree and they understand all the risks and it’s all done under a review panel... you say this is all ethically appropriate and consent is all provided, and everybody understands what’s going on - right, it’s transparent.
So we know how to do that and that’s what we do in North America and in Europe and that’s good, but it can be frustrating to very desperate people who only have a few months to live and want to try something wonderful, right? So there is a certain amount of press that is generated around that sort of stuff.
Andrew Mickey: How do researchers obtain stem cells? And are they difficult to obtain?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, you can’t really buy a stem cell. In fact, it’s considered to be unethical.
It’s like buying tissue. You see... there is a law that says that’s not a good thing to do. You are not supposed to be able to pay people for donating kidney, for example. So there is an entire system of regulations that govern tissue, the exchange of the sale of tissues and cells.
Andrew Mickey: So in the approval process, there is a high amount of regulation when it comes to development?
Dr. Allen Eaves: Well, I would say a big barrier is actually. Getting human tissue to do research on is heavily regulated and it’s so bureaucratic...there is no money in it. So this is a barrier to do research because a lot of research should be done on human tissue.
For instance, if somebody has a breast tumour removed, and they would like to donate it ...a breast cancer researcher would like to have access to that tissue, how do they get it, right?
Well, they have to go and basically talk to a surgeon who does that sort of surgery and the pathology department that’s going to seek the sample and see whether there isn’t a leak...and they have to pickle it and do various things to it, section it and stain it to see real extent of the tumour and what type it is, that sort of stuff. Then there remains to be no live tissue left for biologists to work with, right?
It can be very difficult to get that material and it requires institutional review...board approval requires that you have a grant and clearly describe what you are going to do with the material. But you can’t pay for it either.
So why is the surgeon going to waste their time? Why is the hospital even going to waste their time to help collect it if there is no money in it for them? It’s just a cost, right?
And so that is one of the problems with the way we have structured everything.
Yet, if you were to talk to most cancer patients who would say,” oh gee, I really would like this tissue to be used for research, right? But to actually make that happen is difficult anywhere in our society - anywhere in the world. It’s the just the logistics.
Get everybody on board and get it all organised. That’s one of the things that we would like to have more access to as researchers.
Now, I am wearing my academic research hat, and that has enabled me to get better access to human tissues and that’s definitely a real need.
Andrew Mickey: So medical researchers really need a better solution to this.
Dr. Allen Eaves: That’s why cancer researchers tend to be – they have to be associated with research hospitals and academic physicians who are prepared to help provide the material. They also have an interest in getting the material and passing it to people who can do the research that they may also be part of.
That’s why we need medical research centers linked to major hospitals and funded appropriately. Otherwise, we are left studying with mice and rats, which is not really the way you want to be doing a lot of your research.
So getting all the different tissues and tumours...this is a problem.
Andrew Mickey: This is why most funding goes into research hospitals and universities...
I used to work with uranium...I had similar problems dealing with universities and researchers securing product to work with. That all makes sense.
Dr. Allen Eaves: Yes, and of course the drug companies would love to have you set up a whole bunch of [human]cellular or tissue samples to test, drugs on, right? How do you get that?
So we actually work with a group in the U.S. that provides us with marrow, and we do resell that, and that’s okay. But it’s difficult to get it and you have to pay the patients...you have to pay the doctor...deposit and you have to transport it either frozen or fresh very quickly by a courier service and get it to a lab where it’s going to be used. Freight’s expensive...so it is a barrier to doing research.
So, if we could facilitate that it would be a real bonus for research and benefit to society.
Andrew Mickey: Dr. Eaves, I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to speak with us.
Dr. Allen Eaves: It was my pleasure. If you need anything else, give me a call.
Andrew Mickey: At the rate things are moving in stem cells lately, I’m sure I will.
Urgent Investor Alert: How to survive the volatile markets/bear market.
Learn about little known strategies that are perfect for navigating a bear market. But it’s not just me who thinks so…listen to what others are saying about what’s revealed in the Portfolio Repair Kit:
“A way for you to get your dollars working on Wall Street with less risk...” - CNN Money
